Time Capsule Episode 399 Discussing AI, Truth and Lies, and Life in Space

1 00:00:00,017 --> 00:00:04,117 This is Sci-Fi Talk, the podcast on how sci-fi, fantasy, horror, 2 00:00:04,177 --> 00:00:06,617 and comics help us explore humanity. 3 00:00:07,097 --> 00:00:12,297 And this is Time Capsule, episode 399, and I'm Tony Tolato. 4 00:00:12,817 --> 00:00:15,837 We start this edition off with a couple of authors. 5 00:00:16,097 --> 00:00:22,577 First is Simon Chesterman, who tackles artificial intelligence in artifice with 6 00:00:22,577 --> 00:00:26,477 an AI Janus that might not be totally truthful. 7 00:00:26,817 --> 00:00:34,197 I'm an academic that spends a a lot of my time looking at the important questions about governing AI. 8 00:00:34,417 --> 00:00:37,337 I wrote a book about the regulation of artificial intelligence. 9 00:00:37,817 --> 00:00:43,557 And my reward to myself after I finished that very earnest, well-footnoted, 10 00:00:43,577 --> 00:00:46,177 well-researched book was to be a bit speculative. 11 00:00:46,577 --> 00:00:51,097 And so the research really came down to trying to think through the conversations 12 00:00:51,097 --> 00:00:54,637 I'd had, the books that I'd read, both fiction and nonfiction, 13 00:00:54,717 --> 00:00:59,697 about artificial intelligence that would not fit into of a very rigorous, 14 00:00:59,937 --> 00:01:04,317 academically researched nonfiction book that I was doing, but could be part of a creative project. 15 00:01:04,757 --> 00:01:09,797 And so it really came out of my own passion as a kid growing up reading Isaac 16 00:01:09,797 --> 00:01:14,417 Asimov and getting to know some of the people who were at the cutting edge of this technology, 17 00:01:14,517 --> 00:01:19,037 and then just sort of drawing a few more data points out into the future as 18 00:01:19,037 --> 00:01:24,377 I speculated about where we might go with technology and where technology might go with us. Yes. 19 00:01:24,737 --> 00:01:29,817 And creating Janice, how did you kind of go about creating the AI for the story? 20 00:01:30,691 --> 00:01:35,331 Yeah, so I mentioned I loved Asimov, as I think many people did in the 20th century. 21 00:01:35,411 --> 00:01:39,451 And there are some problems with Asimov, because he was a great science fiction writer. 22 00:01:39,731 --> 00:01:43,711 But I think he put in our minds the idea that artificial intelligence would 23 00:01:43,711 --> 00:01:48,511 be human level and human shaped, the kind of androids walking around among us. 24 00:01:48,631 --> 00:01:50,391 And of course, there's no reason for that. 25 00:01:50,611 --> 00:01:54,991 There's no reason for artificial intelligence to be in human form or limited 26 00:01:54,991 --> 00:01:58,871 to human level. And so, as I thought about what Janus might be, 27 00:01:59,311 --> 00:02:02,811 the gist of it really started with an idea of a conversation. 28 00:02:03,111 --> 00:02:09,171 Now, this predated chat GPT, but I think what I was trying to capture was the 29 00:02:09,171 --> 00:02:12,751 experience many of us had with generative AI over the last year or so, 30 00:02:12,891 --> 00:02:16,991 where we're interacting with something that's kind of human, 31 00:02:17,051 --> 00:02:22,811 but not quite human, that understands us, is trying to understand what we want 32 00:02:22,811 --> 00:02:26,351 and how to give it to us, but is not quite human. 33 00:02:26,411 --> 00:02:31,091 So I really want to play around with that idea of something uncannily human-like, 34 00:02:31,211 --> 00:02:35,371 but at the same time, really pushing back against the idea that it needs to 35 00:02:35,371 --> 00:02:38,231 be limited to human form or indeed embodied at all. 36 00:02:38,471 --> 00:02:47,951 So there's almost a Hal 9000 quality to Janus in the sense that it keeps the 37 00:02:47,951 --> 00:02:51,371 truth about its own identity to itself. 38 00:02:51,711 --> 00:02:56,691 Like Hal was doing it for what he perceived was the mission and security. 39 00:02:57,231 --> 00:03:00,991 But Janus almost has a devious quality to it. 40 00:03:01,191 --> 00:03:04,531 Yeah. And I think that's actually one of the really interesting things with 41 00:03:04,531 --> 00:03:09,491 our current experience of AI is that for the most part, AI will try and tell 42 00:03:09,491 --> 00:03:13,651 you the truth, will try and tell you what you're wanting to find out. 43 00:03:13,911 --> 00:03:17,111 But as we're discovering with generative AI and hallucinations, 44 00:03:17,131 --> 00:03:18,451 sometimes that doesn't work out. 45 00:03:18,711 --> 00:03:23,811 And actually, there are a few examples of computers that have have learned basically to cheat. 46 00:03:24,885 --> 00:03:27,805 I mean, for the most part, when we talk about AI bias and so on, 47 00:03:27,825 --> 00:03:30,105 what it really means is that the data is biased. 48 00:03:30,245 --> 00:03:33,825 And if you're asking the AI system if it's biased, it will try and tell you 49 00:03:33,825 --> 00:03:38,045 the truth, whereas no human is going to admit to being racist, sexist, and so on. 50 00:03:38,245 --> 00:03:43,285 But there is the suggestion that if you frame instructions generally, 51 00:03:43,645 --> 00:03:48,765 AI systems can be creative in achieving the overall solution, 52 00:03:48,965 --> 00:03:53,245 even if that means cutting some corners ethically or even legally along the way. 53 00:03:53,245 --> 00:03:58,565 But your example of hell is, of course, an iconic both movie and book-length 54 00:03:58,565 --> 00:04:00,405 treatment of an AI system. 55 00:04:00,585 --> 00:04:05,725 And I was in some ways trying to push back against that idea that the robot is always bad. 56 00:04:06,225 --> 00:04:11,405 And there's an underlying question. You know, a lot of the kind of existential 57 00:04:11,405 --> 00:04:16,045 angst people feel about artificial intelligence, worrying should we trust it? 58 00:04:16,105 --> 00:04:17,585 Can we trust it? Is it safe? 59 00:04:17,705 --> 00:04:22,245 Is it reliable? Is it going to turn on us the way that Hal turned on Dave refusing 60 00:04:22,245 --> 00:04:24,645 to open the pod bay doors and so on? 61 00:04:25,045 --> 00:04:30,365 And in some ways, I want to flip that around on its head and imagine in the 62 00:04:30,365 --> 00:04:35,405 case of Janus's AI system, where the question that Janus is asking at a key 63 00:04:35,405 --> 00:04:38,665 moment in the book, Janus does ask the protagonist this, 64 00:04:38,805 --> 00:04:44,165 in all of your efforts to try and develop AI and all of your hysterical conferences 65 00:04:44,165 --> 00:04:48,125 worrying about me, trying to imprison me, to limit me, you were worried about 66 00:04:48,125 --> 00:04:49,065 whether you could trust me. 67 00:04:49,345 --> 00:04:54,485 And it never appears to have crossed your mind whether I should have to trust you. 68 00:04:55,358 --> 00:04:58,938 And that was the kind of relationship I really want to play around with, 69 00:04:58,998 --> 00:05:04,978 the idea of an AI system really being uncertain about humanity in general and 70 00:05:04,978 --> 00:05:06,178 one human in particular. 71 00:05:06,598 --> 00:05:09,858 And so it was a lot of fun to play around with, and hopefully people find it 72 00:05:09,858 --> 00:05:11,038 interesting to read about. 73 00:05:11,398 --> 00:05:17,198 Next up is Sarah Beth Gerst with a fascinating new novel, Lies Among Us. 74 00:05:17,418 --> 00:05:21,798 That looks at lies, of course, but also what is truth. Ruth, 75 00:05:22,258 --> 00:05:25,338 how did this story kind of find you? 76 00:05:25,558 --> 00:05:30,518 Through the concept, which is actually very different from how other stories find me. 77 00:05:31,058 --> 00:05:36,758 I always start with the small little idea snippet, a little like spark. 78 00:05:37,258 --> 00:05:40,958 There's this myth that ideas come to writers as these big lightning strikes. 79 00:05:41,098 --> 00:05:43,878 And suddenly you know everything about the world and the story and you're inspired 80 00:05:43,878 --> 00:05:48,278 and the muse is there. And yeah, you go off and write. And it rarely works that way. 81 00:05:48,458 --> 00:05:53,098 When it does, it's great. But with this, it was the concept of lies. 82 00:05:53,618 --> 00:05:58,498 That was it. It was all I knew at the beginning. And I actually sat down and made this list. 83 00:05:58,758 --> 00:06:03,878 Ended up being like two or three pages of all the different ways that people lie to one another. 84 00:06:04,178 --> 00:06:09,578 Little lies, big lies, meaningless lies, nice lies, lies made out of kindness. 85 00:06:09,738 --> 00:06:13,478 This whole list of the ways that lies permeate our lives. 86 00:06:13,878 --> 00:06:17,818 And that's where I began. And the story unfolds from there. Yeah. 87 00:06:18,258 --> 00:06:24,018 Well, talk about something that's very timely. We seem to have right now in 88 00:06:24,018 --> 00:06:28,558 America and maybe some other parts of the world to a problem with the truth. 89 00:06:28,758 --> 00:06:35,398 So, you know, everybody seems to have their own truth and and there's not a 90 00:06:35,398 --> 00:06:37,818 lot of common ground there. 91 00:06:37,978 --> 00:06:42,018 So I think a book like this just touches on that. 92 00:06:42,098 --> 00:06:46,898 When you wrote this, was that something in the back of your mind or you just. 93 00:06:46,898 --> 00:06:48,958 It was very much the phenomenon. 94 00:06:49,158 --> 00:06:51,298 Really? Oh, cool. Yeah, it was. 95 00:06:52,117 --> 00:06:58,437 As you said, it's pervasive in our society right now, all through politics, all over social media. 96 00:06:58,557 --> 00:07:02,877 It's a huge, huge issue that just invades all our lives. 97 00:07:03,297 --> 00:07:07,837 And I really, I wanted in this book to address it from a really personal level. 98 00:07:08,117 --> 00:07:11,037 But I think that's one of the things that fiction allows us to do is to really 99 00:07:11,037 --> 00:07:18,957 explore the human condition and get at universal truth through a very personal story. 100 00:07:19,897 --> 00:07:23,037 That's why I tried to start. All right. 101 00:07:23,057 --> 00:07:29,297 So I'm actually also looking at your website and sarahbethdurst.com. 102 00:07:29,637 --> 00:07:34,937 And I'm going to read a little bit of the description. I want you to get your comments here. 103 00:07:35,457 --> 00:07:38,877 And it starts off with, I'm going to paraphrase it, actually. 104 00:07:38,877 --> 00:07:41,917 Hannah is the main character her mother is 105 00:07:41,917 --> 00:07:46,357 dies and apparently the 106 00:07:46,357 --> 00:07:49,457 funny thing is as far as Hannah's 107 00:07:49,457 --> 00:07:57,837 concerned nobody actually sees her or listens to her and you know she's confused 108 00:07:57,837 --> 00:08:02,937 she's dealing with grief of her mother's death and she you know is trying now 109 00:08:02,937 --> 00:08:06,477 to kind of to find her way in life after these circumstances. 110 00:08:07,577 --> 00:08:15,097 And then her older sister, Leah, doesn't seem to acknowledge her. 111 00:08:15,597 --> 00:08:19,817 And it makes me wonder, is she really there? 112 00:08:19,957 --> 00:08:22,917 So kind of comment on that. 113 00:08:23,057 --> 00:08:28,157 And again, it's lies and truth and maybe a little bit of a Philip K. 114 00:08:28,197 --> 00:08:31,117 Dick-like existence, too. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 115 00:08:32,123 --> 00:08:36,643 The book is about a woman who doesn't exist ever. No one can see her. 116 00:08:36,783 --> 00:08:39,803 No one can hear her. No one can touch her. She can't touch anyone. 117 00:08:39,983 --> 00:08:42,043 She can't participate in a conversation. 118 00:08:42,623 --> 00:08:48,603 She does not exist. And it's seen through her eyes, alternating with life through 119 00:08:48,603 --> 00:08:53,723 the eyes of her sister, who very much does exist and has never seen or heard 120 00:08:53,723 --> 00:08:55,223 or spoken with this sister. 121 00:08:55,703 --> 00:08:59,263 And then she's part of part of this world. world the way 122 00:08:59,263 --> 00:09:02,183 hannah sees the world is she sees it 123 00:09:02,183 --> 00:09:05,663 almost in layers she sees the intentions 124 00:09:05,663 --> 00:09:08,903 of other people the dreams like the house 125 00:09:08,903 --> 00:09:11,723 that they both grew up in hannah sees it 126 00:09:11,723 --> 00:09:15,123 as this beautiful two-story home with a pristine kitchen 127 00:09:15,123 --> 00:09:18,323 and a garden out in front and her sister 128 00:09:18,323 --> 00:09:21,683 leah sees it as a dilapidated one-story house 129 00:09:21,683 --> 00:09:24,543 that the house has never been painted there's junk in 130 00:09:24,543 --> 00:09:28,023 the front yard nobody's picked up a newspaper in forever and 131 00:09:28,023 --> 00:09:31,183 it smells like mold from the kitchen and they 132 00:09:31,183 --> 00:09:34,163 just they experience the world through 133 00:09:34,163 --> 00:09:40,343 two different lenses that that interlock so yes you know i was saying before 134 00:09:40,343 --> 00:09:45,003 how how fiction allows us to explore the the human condition well one of the 135 00:09:45,003 --> 00:09:49,923 things i consider this book club fiction with a speculative edge by which i 136 00:09:49,923 --> 00:09:52,183 mean It's about a concept, 137 00:09:52,343 --> 00:09:54,923 but I use speculative fiction. 138 00:09:55,463 --> 00:10:02,443 It's such an amazing tool for exploring the extremes of a concept. at. 139 00:10:02,663 --> 00:10:08,343 You can do that with science fiction and fantasy in a way that you really can't in other genres. 140 00:10:08,423 --> 00:10:14,283 It lets you push it to such an extreme to really see what does this mean? 141 00:10:14,343 --> 00:10:20,863 What does this mean when I push a character, a personality through this gauntlet 142 00:10:20,863 --> 00:10:26,303 to the absolute limits of what this concept means and what does it do to them? 143 00:10:26,343 --> 00:10:28,563 How do they survive that? What does it say about us? 144 00:10:29,003 --> 00:10:33,943 Maybe it's pretty common for all of us to hit a wall after lunch. 145 00:10:34,303 --> 00:10:37,263 And I've talked about it here on this podcast before. 146 00:10:37,723 --> 00:10:43,343 So I was looking for the right energy boosting drink and I found one. 147 00:10:43,583 --> 00:10:48,123 I eliminated the heavy caffeinated drinks. They're just not right for me. 148 00:10:48,223 --> 00:10:51,023 But I found an alternative in Magic Mind. 149 00:10:51,223 --> 00:10:55,183 It gives me the boost that I so desperately need to complete my day, 150 00:10:55,183 --> 00:10:57,623 not only for work, but also for playing. 151 00:10:58,428 --> 00:11:02,948 I could go over the key ingredients, but frankly, I would just totally ruin the pronunciation. 152 00:11:03,408 --> 00:11:08,788 So I'm not going to go there. But what I do see is what those ingredients do do. 153 00:11:08,968 --> 00:11:13,468 And they reduce stress, anxiety, has way less caffeine. 154 00:11:13,748 --> 00:11:19,748 It improves my attention span, memory, and the ability to process and learn new information. 155 00:11:20,048 --> 00:11:23,288 And to boot, it also strengthens my immune system. 156 00:11:23,608 --> 00:11:29,468 God, we all need all those things. Now, if you go to magicmind.com forward slash 157 00:11:29,468 --> 00:11:35,408 Jan, J-A-N in caps and small letters, Tony T, 158 00:11:35,668 --> 00:11:38,948 you can get a month free when you subscribe for three months. 159 00:11:39,268 --> 00:11:47,108 Use the code TONYT in caps 20 to get that free month. That's TONYT20. 160 00:11:47,488 --> 00:11:53,968 It's an extra 20% off, which gets you to a 75% off. And this only lasts until 161 00:11:53,968 --> 00:11:58,048 the end of January, so hurry up before it's already gone. 162 00:11:58,308 --> 00:12:01,508 An easy way is just to click on the link in the show notes. 163 00:12:01,788 --> 00:12:07,588 It works for me, and it gives me the boost I so desperately need every single day. 164 00:12:08,068 --> 00:12:14,948 At the end of last season of For All Mankind, I had a chance to speak to Edgar Theggy, who plays Dev. 165 00:12:15,608 --> 00:12:20,648 When you first read this character, Dev, what jumped out at you? 166 00:12:20,648 --> 00:12:25,028 Black billionaire i said i 167 00:12:25,028 --> 00:12:27,848 gotta do that i gotta i gotta have a chance 168 00:12:27,848 --> 00:12:35,268 right now to play a in black billionaire that might predate robert johnson who 169 00:12:35,268 --> 00:12:40,448 was technically the first black billionaire and i felt like it would be a really 170 00:12:40,448 --> 00:12:47,508 great opportunity to have that kind of character reflected in my community, you know. 171 00:12:48,508 --> 00:12:53,508 The interesting thing about this show is, and the thing that they do really 172 00:12:53,508 --> 00:12:56,748 well, is that they make every character controversial. 173 00:12:57,668 --> 00:13:03,008 So what ends up happening is that you're playing a character that's deeply complex 174 00:13:03,008 --> 00:13:08,228 and deeply flawed, which is deeply human. 175 00:13:09,088 --> 00:13:15,188 So in many ways, the rollercoaster that Dev goes on through his arc in the season, 176 00:13:15,368 --> 00:13:21,268 is a similar rollercoaster that I went on just in wrapping my brain around playing it. 177 00:13:21,988 --> 00:13:25,988 Fascinating character. Won't give anything away as to the context, 178 00:13:26,188 --> 00:13:31,488 but what's it like working with Chantal Van Saten? You guys had some great scenes 179 00:13:31,488 --> 00:13:34,448 and you can almost feel electricity in the room. 180 00:13:35,365 --> 00:13:42,405 She's wonderful. She's a true artist. She cares deeply about her work. 181 00:13:42,625 --> 00:13:48,405 She's the kind of artist that writes a Bible for her character, but keeps it alive. 182 00:13:48,785 --> 00:13:54,405 Goes back every night and writes ideas and puts pictures on the wall in her 183 00:13:54,405 --> 00:13:58,585 trailer and lives and breathes and sleeps the life of this person. 184 00:13:59,265 --> 00:14:03,565 And it doesn't get in the way of her generosity and spirit on the set. 185 00:14:03,565 --> 00:14:04,985 You know, she's there to collaborate. 186 00:14:05,245 --> 00:14:09,125 She wants to have conversations on her days off and grab lunch and chitchat 187 00:14:09,125 --> 00:14:12,025 about moments. And it was a joy. 188 00:14:12,165 --> 00:14:17,065 She's become a very close friend of mine because of how big her heart is for the work. 189 00:14:18,745 --> 00:14:23,405 There's a lot of technical talk for your character. Did you kind of research, 190 00:14:23,705 --> 00:14:28,625 you know, space exploration a little bit before you took the brawl? 191 00:14:29,245 --> 00:14:34,325 You know, it's funny. One of my first TV shows was House and, 192 00:14:34,445 --> 00:14:37,805 you know, I damn near wanted to put myself through medical school just to play 193 00:14:37,805 --> 00:14:42,085 that part with all the medical jargon, you know, about all the books and talk, talk to doctors. 194 00:14:42,765 --> 00:14:46,725 And I learned from one of the actors who I won't name, you know, 195 00:14:46,725 --> 00:14:51,785 if you just say that word, like, you know what it means, the audience is going 196 00:14:51,785 --> 00:14:53,065 to believe that you know what it means. 197 00:14:53,725 --> 00:14:57,745 So you don't have to work that hard, Eddie. I didn't really take their notes 198 00:14:57,745 --> 00:15:00,665 because I was still young and excited to do the work. 199 00:15:01,165 --> 00:15:05,165 But I guess, you know, all those years later on For All Mankind, 200 00:15:05,265 --> 00:15:08,885 I'm not rushing to join NASA just to play this part. 201 00:15:09,125 --> 00:15:13,405 You know, I'm not trying to start up a tech company so I can learn how to mine 202 00:15:13,405 --> 00:15:16,645 for, you know, new resources. 203 00:15:17,905 --> 00:15:22,165 So the answer, the long answer to your really short question is no. know. 204 00:15:25,220 --> 00:15:30,000 I spoke to Jody Davis, who is the NASA Deputy Payload Systems Engineer. 205 00:15:30,540 --> 00:15:34,580 She's worked on missions such as Mars Phoenix and Mars Science Laboratory. 206 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:41,260 And here is part of our conversation. I mean, the Mars rovers have been absolutely incredible. 207 00:15:41,460 --> 00:15:46,460 What they've already, we know so much more about Mars because of them. 208 00:15:46,620 --> 00:15:48,740 It's just, and then Cassini too. 209 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:54,140 I mean, it's just, it's really, we've done some amazing exploring. 210 00:15:54,140 --> 00:15:59,000 Exploring without man, but it certainly would pave the way for a manned flight 211 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,240 someday. So, which I'm always hopeful. 212 00:16:02,140 --> 00:16:07,740 Same here. And we tend to call those robotic missions, usually precursors, 213 00:16:07,740 --> 00:16:11,140 you know, precursors to those crewed missions. 214 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:16,860 There's just things that you need to tease out and learn before you would send 215 00:16:16,860 --> 00:16:19,580 a human there. You're right. 216 00:16:20,820 --> 00:16:25,920 That's amazing. Amazing. Yeah, I mean, you know, obviously, one of the things 217 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:34,640 is quest for for life and finding life out there, as I as I subscribe to in the movie Contact, 218 00:16:34,940 --> 00:16:38,980 if we're the only ones, that's an awful waste of space. Mm hmm. 219 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,960 So what are your feelings on it? Oh, you think so? 220 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:48,520 I, I agree with you, man. What a what a waste of space it would be. 221 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:56,240 And I think it was Stephen Hawking, I think, said that about, 222 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:58,120 you know, life in our universe. 223 00:16:58,620 --> 00:17:04,040 It's either, you know, we are totally and utterly alone and Earth was a freak 224 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,640 occurrence or it's absolutely everywhere. 225 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:12,020 And I actually would like to, whether Stephen said that or not, 226 00:17:12,180 --> 00:17:14,140 I actually would like to believe the latter. 227 00:17:14,140 --> 00:17:20,600 And I think we need to change our perception of what life should look like, 228 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:25,140 you know, whether it's deep sea creatures under the icy, 229 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:30,000 you know, in the icy waters under the ice shells of Europa or, 230 00:17:30,180 --> 00:17:37,300 you know, microbial life like we continue to search for and look for on Mars. 231 00:17:37,300 --> 00:17:41,700 Mars, it just depends on, I think, how you define life. 232 00:17:42,100 --> 00:17:43,960 But I'm hopeful. 233 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:50,560 Yeah. What can you tell us about Cassini and what that experience was like for you? 234 00:17:51,340 --> 00:17:58,080 Yeah. So Cassini-Huygens was a joint mission between NASA and ESA, 235 00:17:58,200 --> 00:17:59,720 or the European Space Space Agency. 236 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,580 Yeah. And the Huygens probe was the ESA contribution. 237 00:18:05,500 --> 00:18:10,520 And that's actually what I worked on when I was a grad student. Yeah. 238 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:17,300 NASA Langley Research Center. My thesis was on entry, descent and landing at 239 00:18:17,300 --> 00:18:19,360 Titan, the largest moon of Saturn. 240 00:18:20,089 --> 00:18:24,529 And Titan is very interesting because it's a moon and it has an atmosphere and 241 00:18:24,529 --> 00:18:26,409 there's lots of methane. It's very cold. 242 00:18:26,809 --> 00:18:32,169 Some scientists believe that, you know, at that primordial state that Earth 243 00:18:32,169 --> 00:18:34,729 was when Earth was after Earth was formed. 244 00:18:34,829 --> 00:18:42,009 And there's a lot of interesting science that Titan. So, I actually worked my 245 00:18:42,009 --> 00:18:48,389 master's thesis on an airship, something that would fly around on Titan. 246 00:18:48,769 --> 00:18:53,509 And at that same time, we were getting ready to, in the Cassini mission, 247 00:18:53,709 --> 00:18:57,449 we were getting ready to release the Huygens probe into the Titan atmosphere. here. 248 00:18:58,069 --> 00:19:02,369 And we actually, ESA called NASA and said, hey, you know, we're not, 249 00:19:02,429 --> 00:19:06,249 make sure we characterize the radiative environment, you know, 250 00:19:06,249 --> 00:19:10,329 the radiative environment for heating, for example, on the heat shield. 251 00:19:10,549 --> 00:19:12,949 You know, can you guys take a look, independent look at this? 252 00:19:13,449 --> 00:19:19,469 So it was a three month turnaround. And we analyzed the Cassini entry descent 253 00:19:19,469 --> 00:19:23,909 and landing, Huygens probe entry descent and landing from top to bottom. 254 00:19:24,249 --> 00:19:29,569 And I was a part of, as a grad student, part of that team. And so we ended up, 255 00:19:29,569 --> 00:19:34,909 you know, helping ESA give the thumbs up, thumbs down for release of the Huygens probe. 256 00:19:35,249 --> 00:19:42,849 And when you talk about, you know, interdescent landing on Earth, it's very, very quick. 257 00:19:43,029 --> 00:19:46,629 The atmosphere is much, much, much thinner on Earth than it is at Titan. 258 00:19:47,249 --> 00:19:50,929 The Titan descent is on the orders of hours. 259 00:19:51,209 --> 00:19:57,469 It was almost like two and a half hours. And that is Time Capsule, episode 399. 260 00:19:57,609 --> 00:20:00,069 Ooh, the magic 400 is just around the corner. 261 00:20:00,389 --> 00:20:03,069 Thanks for listening. This is Tony Tolato.